April 11, 2006

Ask Amnesty Online Discussion Series: Globalizing Justice

The "Globalizing Justice" series continues next Tuesday, April 11 from 1:00-2:00 PM with Reed Brody, Special Counsel for Human Rights Watch, who will discuss efforts to bring Chad's exiled former president, Hissène Habré, to justice.

Victims of the human rights abuses committed while Mr. Habré was in power have been waiting for more than a decade to bring him to trial. In September 2005, a Belgian judge issued an international arrest warrant charging Mr. Habré with crimes against humanity, war crimes and torture committed during his 1982-90 rule. Mr. Habré lives in exile in Senegal, where he was indicted in 2000 before courts ruled that he could not be tried there. Pursuant to the arrest warrant and a Belgian extradition request, Senegalese authorities arrested Mr. Habré on November 15, 2005. After a Senegalese court refused to rule on the extradition request, Senegal announced that it had asked the January 2006 summit of the African Union to recommend "the competent jurisdiction" for the trial of Hissène Habré. That summit set up a Committee of Eminent African Jurists to consider the options for Habré's trial and to report back at the July 2006 summit.

Featured Guest: Reed Brody

From our featured guest: "I look forward to speaking to you on April 11th."

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Question Submitted by Rebecca:

Shouldn't Hissene Habre be tried in Africa?

Reed Brody answers:

We would of course have preferred to see Hissène Habré tried in Africa. But the fact is that Senegal refused to prosecute Mr. Habré in 2000 when it had the opportunity to do so, Chad has never sought Mr. Habré’s extradition (and could not guarantee him a fair trial), and no other country has asked for Mr. Habré’s extradition.

Mr. Habré’s extradition to Belgium is the most efficient, realistic, and timely option for ensuring that Mr. Habré is able to respond to the charges against him with all the guarantees of a fair trial.
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Question Submitted by RAVINDERA KUMAR VERMA:

How far we are from "REAL UNIVERSAL JURISDICTION" and what are difficulties in the way to create International penal code?

Reed Brody answers:

Thanks. The problem is first one of law and then one of political will. "universal jurisdiction" is the principle that every state has an interest in bringing to justice the perpetrators of particular crimes of international concern, no matter where the crime was committed, and regardless of the nationality of the perpetrators or their victims. Unfortunately, the fact that a country has ratified a treaty requiring it to prosecute alleged torturers or war criminals, or that customary international law calls for prosecution of the perpetrators of genocide or other crimes against humanity, is not always enough to ensure that the country's laws actually permit prosecution. In most countries, treaties must be specifically "incorporated" into domestic law before they can be relied on. All too often, countries ratify treaties and then fail to adopt implementing legislation incorporating the treaties into national law. Even where they have, the political will of the prosecuting state will be a critical factor in the possibility of a prosecution. We have seen time and again - in the case of habre in Senegal, but also Mengistu when he went to South Africa, etc - that unless there is a mass moblization as there was in the Pinochet case, so called "bystander states" are not inclined to prosecute top officials of other states.

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Question Submitted by Diane:

Global Justice is an ideal usually rather far removed from reality. For example, I believe in the idea of the UN, but the UN will never be what it was envisioned to be as long as the US has a veto. Mr Bush excused going to Iraq because the UN is weak. I say stop defying the UN and give the UN some teeth, in part, by removing the US veto. My question is: Can we ever talk as much about prosecuting the human rights abuses of small time dictators as much as we should about the human rights abuses of multi-national, first world, corporations that peddle goods produced by small children under Nazi-style conditions? These corporations easily hide behind a plethora of legal loopholes, and the claims that they didn't know? When in fact, it should be obvious, goods very likely could not be produced so cheaply if they were not produced under those conditions. Why is it so hard to see that these legal loopholes are just as illegitimate, as when a small time dictator makes genocide legal in his own country?

Reed Brody answers:

Good question. The problem of double-standards is very real. If we are going to help the victims of a small-time dictator, we need to help the victims of big players as well, including powerful gov'ts and corporations. In the US, at least, the Alien Tort Claims act is a promising tool for holding muli-national corps accountable when they commit egregious abuses. Amnesty has been cmapigning to defend the ATCA from attempts by the current administration to weaken it.
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Question Submitted by Dontae:

Is people with HIV/AIDS considered victims of torture by the powers that be.

Reed Brody answers:

I wouldnt say that people w/ HIV are torture victims, but they are subject to a wide range of human rights violations, particulalrly discrimination, which only add to the stigmatization of persons at highest risk of infection and thus marginalize and drive underground those who need information, preventive services, and treatment most desperately.

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Question Submitted by Ignatius J Wozniak:

How can any American, or for that mattter, any highly American inluenced organization, demand justice anywhere, when our very own President is a known war criminal of many repeated, and different grievous violations. How can any American ask anyone how just or unjust any system is, when US elections are nothing but a cruel hoax?

Reed Brody answers:

We have a duty to demand justice everywhere. Last year, I wrote a report Getting Away with Torture?
Command Responsibility for the U.S. Abuse of Detainees http://www.hrw.org/reports/2005/us0405/
which said that a criminal investigation were warranted against Defence Secretary Rumsfeld, CIA Director Tenet and others for their role in setting U.S. interrogation policies etc.

Of course, no action has been taken against Rumsfeld et al.
But does that mean that we should not help victims of Pinochet, Charles taylor and Hissene Habre? Ask the activists and victims in those countries if we should refrain from helping them obtain justice because we were unable to get justice for the victims at Abu Ghraib.
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Question Submitted by Maddy:

Amnesty mentioned that you were involved in the case of Augusto Pinochet via the British legal system. How difficult has it been to get major powers such as Britain and the US involved in bringing Hissene Habre to justice? And also, thanks for all the great work that you do. Most ordinary people won't have heard of people like Habre, mainly due to the incompetence of the Western media and it's only through organisations like Amnesty and Human Rights Watch that these people are brought to justice.

Reed Brody answers:

Thanks for the kind words. The US and the UK have been helpful when it doesnt run counter to their perceived interests. In the Pinochet case, of course, the British authorities arrested Pinochet and kept him detained for five hundred days until he was returned to Chile. While we were disappointed that he wasn't sent to Spain to stand trial, in fact the principles reaffirmed in that case on head of state immunity and universal jurisdiction were great advances for international justice. And by the time Pinochet went back to Chile, the situation had evolved so far, largely thanks to his arrest in London, that the courts in Chile were able to take it from there.
In the case of Hissene Habre, the European Union has supported Belgium's extradition request. The United States has not played a role either positive or negative. However, it was because of US pressure that the Belgian law on universal jurisdiction was repealed. Only intense lobbying by the Chadian victims was able to convince the Belgian Parliament to carve out a "grandfather clause" to allow that prosecution to continue.

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Question Submitted by Rebecca:

I've lived in Chad. While most of the people I met referred to Habre as a "bad man", they were more concerned with their day-to-day survival in one of the most desperate places on earth. I wonder: though international justice ought to be pursued as a goal in its own right, is there any proof that as a means it leads to peace or contributes to a national healing process?

Reed Brody answers:

Good question. Justice for past crimes doesn't put food on people's table immediately. But hopefully it contributes to a culture of accountability in which rulers know that there are limits to what they can do and citizens feel empowered to assert their rights. In the case of Chad, the international effort to prosecute Habre has created a limited space within Chad itself to use the courts.
There is no empirical evidence yet on the benefits of international justice on national reconciliation, but it seems to be an important step in establishing the principle that no one is above the law and in allowing victims to recover their status as the holder of legal rights.
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Question Submitted by Jess:

Since when has Amnesty become a persecuting organization. I thought your job was to advocate for the persecuted.

Reed Brody answers:

First, I don't work for Amnesty, although I have, and have the highest respect for Amnesty. At Human Rights Watch, the decision to help victims pursure cases against state criminals is in fact a way of advocating for the persecuted.
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Question Submitted by Armel Ramadji Doumnande:

I'm a Chadian Human Rights activist and I would like to use this opportunity to thank Mr. Reed Brody, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty Internatinal, and all Human Rights organizations and defenders who have shown steadfastness, determination and courage in helping the victims of Hissene Habre seeing him stand trial. We'll forever be grateful for every single effort deployed to put that criminal to trial. On behalf of many Chadians who will certainly agree with me, LET'S NOT GIVE UP NO MATTER WHAT. Let's do it for the memory of all those who were silenced by Hissene Habre. Let's do it so that no one else goes through what some of us have endured and keep suffering of. Recently, I have received death threats because of my activism through my blog: http://bringhissenehabre2justice.wordpress.com/2006/03/05/death-threats-against-me/ and through my websites htt://ramadji.com and http://lale-online.com for the prosecution Habre. Those threats won't make me stop because what many of us are doing gives a tremendous hope to the victims. Today, Charles Taylor is in jail waiting for his trial. Tomorrow, Habre will follow him. I'm confident. Thanks to all of you for your help.

Reed Brody answers:

Thank you very much. One of the motivations for us to keep going has been the support of Chadian society and particularly, the human rights groups. This is a case that has had "nine lives." It's only because of the perseverence and determination of the victims that we have bounced back from each defeat. With your support, our chances of bringing Hissene Habre to justice are still very, very good. When I get offline, I'll read your blog.
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Question Submitted by Ilana:

What government is going to follow through with this prosecution? Why can't we attack the people who are in government in the Sudan while they're still in government if we can prosecute this leader?

Reed Brody answers:

In the Sudan, we have been advocating for a strong and robust international peacekeeping force in order to protect the people of Darfur and allow the millions of displaced to return home. We've also supported the International Criminal Court (ICC) in its investigation of Sudanese government leaders for their potential involvement in crimes there. The ICC investigation represents one of the first attempts to establish criminal responsibility of leaders for crimes against humanity while those crimes are taking place.
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Question Submitted by Lisa:

I am currently focusing on the rights of journalists for my human rights class, and I was wondering if you knew of any case studies involving imprisoned/tortured/'disappeared' journalists during the time of Habré. Also, I know that Daniel Bekoutou received death threats after the indictment of Habré. Does Bekoutou still need to lay low or have the threats subsided?

Reed Brody answers:

Dany has been living in exile and is now in Canada, but I'm pleased to say that he's doing very well. Under Habre, the most notorious case of a journalist being killed is that of Saleh Gaba, who was a Chadian reporter for AFP, and who died in prison. There are credible allegations that Habre was personally responsible for his death. Today, while the press in Chad is much freer than it was under Habre's one-party rule, several journalists have gone to jail in the last year. And one, an Iranian exile who ran a radio station in the South, has been tortured frequently.
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Question Submitted by Mila Buz Reyes-Mesia:

Dear Mr. Reed Brody, What is hindering the trial the former dictator of Chad,Hissene Habre? As a Human Rights Watch Advocacy Member, I am also very concern with conditions of Children's in Jail in the Philippines with sub-human treatment and inhumane condition in the deplorable tiny jail cell without any bed but just a concrete cement. What is the protocol for holding the Pres. Gloria Macapagal Arroyo for the neglect and violation of Children's International Human Rights of these Children's in jail in the Philippines?

Reed Brody answers:

The main stumbling block in getting Habre to trial is the lack of political will in Senegal, where Habre lives in exile. In 2000, after Habre was arrested by a Senegalese judge, the charges were thrown out, following political interference. Five years later, when Belgium asked for Habre's extradition, there was a lot of pressure from Habre's well-paid supporters, many of whom were probably bought off with the millions that Habre stole from Chad. And the president of Senegal "transferred" the case to the African Union.
I'm not as familiar with the situation of children in the Philippines.
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Question Submitted by JASON:

MISTERE D'EMPOISONEMENT DES MEDECINS ET TRAVAILEURS DE L'HOPITAL DE KINKONZI, TSHELA, BAS-CONGO, EN CONGO DEMOCRATIQUE RDC, AFRICA. Help needed to stop, arrest, Mr. Konde Muanza, who is poisoning Medical doctors and other workers of that Hospital of Kinkonzi, in Kinkonzi, Tshela, Bas-congo in Congo RDC. Several people have vanished of an unjustified death such as the physician assistant called :"KINZAMBI" AND OTHERS. A FULL INVESTIGATION IS NEEDED TO END the killing of people in this BRUTAL AND UNHUMAN WAY.

Reed Brody answers:

OK
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Question Submitted by Thabo Chelechele:

Thank you very much for the opportunity to ask you a qeustion. I am a member of Amnesty International in South Africa, and I am having friends from Zimbabwe, so every time when we speak about crisis in Zimbabwe as far as Human Rights is corncern they start to be angry with me saying that I am coming up with western Ideology to Africa, they claim that there is nothing wrong in Zimbabwe, what happens there is ussual. So what can I do to make sure that people especially my peer(24YEARS)become aware of the abuse of Huamn Rights in Zimbabwe.

Reed Brody answers:

Thanks for your question. Things are very wrong in Zimbabwe and unfortunately, the government of South Africa has not taken a very strong stand. If you have the resources, you could show a film on Zimbabwe or invite exiled activists to come and speak to your peers. Good luck!
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Question Submitted by Armel Ramadji Doumnande:

What can the victims of Hissene Habre possibly do after June 2006 in the scenario the African Union refuses to prosecute him and objects to his extradition to Belgium?

Reed Brody answers:

Ramadji, Belgium has promised that if Senegal fails to meet its treaty obligation to prosecute or extradite Hissene Habre, it will invoke Article 30 of the UN Convention against Torture, which could lead to taking Senegal to the International Court of Justice (ICJ). The ICJ could require Senegal to do what it promised to do in ratifying the Convention -- extradite or prosecute Habre. The victims also have a case against Senegal pending before the UN Committee against Torture. We're not giving up!
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Question Submitted by Erin:

What precedent will be used in Habre's trial?

Reed Brody answers:

We will build on the precedents established by the War Crimes Trials for Yugoslavia and Rwanda. We have very solid evidence of Hissene Habre's responsibility for the thousands of political killings and systematic torture that took place in Chad. I discovered, happened to stumble on, the abandoned files of Habre's political police, which provide a roadmap into how the repression was carried out. The files contain the names of 1,208 people who died in prison, including a jail in Habre's presidential compound.
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Question Submitted by Armel Ramadji Doumnande:

I lost my younger brother in the massacre of Deli ( 30km of Moundou, South of Chad) on September 17, 1984, two uncles ( arrested and reported missing until today) and many other relatives and friends during what is known in Chad as "Septembre Noir" (Black Septembre). How many massacres does it take before we call it genocide? Don't you think all the crimes of Hissene Habre against the Sara, the Haderay, the Zaghawa,...fall into the definition of a genocide?

Reed Brody answers:

The Belgian judge charged Habre with genocide as well as crimes against humanity, war crimes, and torture.
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Question Submitted by Erin:

Is there any possibility that this trial could lead to an investigation into US and French support for Habré?

Reed Brody answers:

We have evidence of US and French, particularly US, support for Habre. Clearly, the United States has a political responsibility in its support of Habre.
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