September 19-26, 2005

LGBT Human Rights: A Chat with Former Amnesty International Prisoner of Conscience Wissam Tawfiq Abyad

Egyptian authorities jailed Wissam Tawfiq Abyad solely for being gay. During his yearlong detention, he was misled into giving false testimony about his case and routinely humiliated, threatened with torture and prevented from having contact with other inmates. He was released in January 2004, thanks in part to the thousands of letters that poured in from Amnesty International (AI) activists worldwide. But his connection with AI didn’t end there.

Now free and living with his partner in Boston, Abyad’s fight is not over. Since coming to the United States in 2004, Abyad has spoken at AI meetings nationwide about his experience and those of other gay men jailed and tortured in Egypt. In July 2005, he spoke at the AIUSA Youth Activist Kollege, an annual human rights camp, where his personal story served as an inspiration to up-and-coming Amnesty activists.

Please join us for our chat to learn about Mr. Abyad's continuing work on lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) human rights issues in Egypt. Submit your questions throughout the week of September 19th. Answers to your questions will be posted on Monday, September 26th.

Featured Guest: Wissam Abyad

From our featured guest: "I look forward to answering your questions."

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Question Submitted by tram:

Hello Mr. Wissam Tawfiq Abyad, Thank you for your courageous work in defending human rights for this especially threatened group. I'd like to ask, in your experience, and talking specifically about the international human rights community, or the international community in general: (1) what is the biggest obstacle to human rights work in LGBT? and (2) how might you suggest a response to this obstacle? Many thanks! tram nguyen

Wissam Abyad answers:

One of the biggest challenges in my opinion is the cultural differences around the world in countries like the Middle East, Iran, Asia, etc. Working with people with the mentality of these countries is sometimes difficult for people from the Western countries. Human rights work in LGBT is made even harder by the situations and countries themselves in trying to make a situation much bigger or worse than it really is - for example in Iran when the 2 gay guys were executed recently, the government there made the situation into such a huge deal, with the guys being accused of raping a younger boy, which is probably made up, it makes it much more difficult for foreign governments and organizations like Amnesty to interfere. In my case, also, the Egyptian government used prostitution laws against me since there is no law for homosexuality. Amnesty does not do work with prostitutes and so they had a hard time actually supporting all of the gay men in Egypt who had this charge against them. I was lucky that by the time I was arrested, it was widely understood that this was a false made up charge to keep foreigners from protesting, and to actually have some law to use against me. Amnesty then was able to decide to support all of us in Egypt. The Queen Boat case (Cairo 52) was actually made into such a huge deal by using religious laws against them- it made it more controversial in Egypt itself because of that. These are just a few examples of cutting through the confusion used by other governments in their abuse of LGBT people around the world.
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Question Submitted by Jerry Atkins:

Since Egypt is one of the countries for which the USA provides significant military support, 1) was the Egyptian military involved in your inprisonment? and 2) are you aware of any participation of representatives of the USA in your captivity, torture, etc?

Wissam Abyad answers:

All prisons and police in Egypt are related to the Egyptian military. In Egypt there are many branches to the Military, and several of them work in prisons as guards and all that. I never knew of any Americans or representation of the US in my captivity, torture...
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Question Submitted by Kat:

Greeting Mr. Wissam Tawfiq Abyad.. I am enthused about your release, and sorry to hear of the torture you endured both while in prison, and some in part to the political atmosphere surrounding gay, bi-sexual, and transgender citizens. I would like to know what the current state of affairs is in regards to LGBT communities in Egypt and how difficult it is to pursue any change in law or policy in regards to LGBT citizens?

Wissam Abyad answers:

Hi Kat, thanks for your support. From what I hear in Egypt things have quieted down some, and the police are not arresting as many guys openly as before. However, the social situation is still the same, and the lives of the hundreds of guys arrested for being gay are still ruined. When any Egyptian applies for a new job, they are required to provide a copy of their police record, and so they suffer from discrimination a lot for that. It would also be very difficult in Egypt and many other countries of the Middle East to change laws and policies regarding LGBT citizens since they suffer a lot from social and religious discrimination, it is harder to change governments that are led by conservative religious leaders. In all of the Middle East, the LGBT community is completely underground and hidden, and being open can be dangerous for them. People need to work slowly to change the mindset of their friends and families that being LGBT is not wrong or bad, and this will take a long time. After the social aspects are slightly better, then the people can fight for their rights in government.
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Question Submitted by Kate:

What is the Egyptian government's official policy regarding gays and what position, if any, has Al-Ashar taken on the issue? Also, are lesbians treated differently than male homosexuals? Finally, keep up the good work and continue to fight a worthy fight. Best wishes.

Wissam Abyad answers:

Thanks Kate for your message. The Egyptian government's policies on this are probably a lot more complicated than we can understand. I of course don't know the real policy, but I know that in my case the police had freedom to prosecute me and threaten me with torture all the time as the government did not stop them. Al-Azhar probably has a formal position on LGBT issues, but it is not discussed openly. Being LGBT is forbidden in Islam, and they would support that view. Lesbians are not considered to exist since the society is dominated by men. Also, women stay home, are not out in public often, and therefore lead a totally different kind of life. They are much more hidden, and people don't even think lesbians exist.
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Question Submitted by Eileen:

While you were in prison, did you have any idea that Amnesty International activists were writing letters to Egyptian authorities to try to secure your release?

Wissam Abyad answers:

Yes of course! I heard the news often from my partner who was giving information to Amnesty International all the time and in touch with them all the time. I received thousands of letters and postcards in prison from people all over the world. That helped me a lot! Also, a friend of my partner's works in the Egyptian President's office, and after my release he informed us that the letters from Amnesty and other supporters were given to Mubarak then.
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Question Submitted by Joanna:

Can you explain me how did they write your arrest warrant about? Is it legal in Egypt to arrest people just for having different sexual orientation?

Wissam Abyad answers:

The vice squad used laws from the early 1900s against me, and there are no laws in Egypt about homosexuality, but they used lechery and debauchery laws against me and the other guys. There was no warrant for my arrest, I was taken from the street in front of MacDonald's where I was meeting a guy for lunch. They also did not have a warrant to record anything I said over the net, but the guy who was chatting with me to set up the meeting where I was arrested had printed out everything and given it to them. It is not legal to arrest people from sexual orientation in Egypt, but under the Emergency Laws there, anyone can be held for any length of time by the police for any reason or none.
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Question Submitted by Jan:

Hello Wissam, I am wondering what your jail conditions were like, as well as what the formal charge against you was. Also I just want to voice my disgust at your previous situation...as well as my appreciation for your willingness to communicate with the world about your rights violation.

Wissam Abyad answers:

Thanks Jan. I mentioned before that my formal charges were debauchery and lechery, and inciting others to debauchery. I was in many places in jails and police stations all over Egypt in the time I was in jail. In most of them the conditions were disgusting, the worst place I was is probably the Appeals Jail where I stayed for 3 weeks - my cell was 6'x12' with no lights and no water and no toilet. I had to use a bowl and a plastic bag as a toilet, and had water brought to me daily in a bucket in exchange for cigaretts. I was held on the same floor as people on death row, some who had been there for many many years. The main reason to keep me in a death row cell was to keep me away from the other prisoners so I didnt' try to corrupt them into gay sex. In the foreigners prison I was in for the majority of time, I was pretty lucky. I was in a room with 15 guys total, and in a spot 6'x 2' to sleep on the floor. We had a big open area outside to walk in, and only foreign prisoners there mostly on drug charges and with life sentences. The guards were terrible to us, but the other prisoners mostly helped each other in that prison since we were all non-Egyptians. The trips between jails were in big metal cages on the back of trucks, with no light and very tiny windows, and they were usually very crowded and very dirty and hot. There were no seats and nothing to hold onto and we had to sit on the floor and fall all over each other. When I was in the courthouses it was extremely scary since all kinds of terrible criminals were in the same cement room as me, and I got threatened a lot by those guys. I was scared almost every day of that year something terrible was going to happen to me.
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Question Submitted by William:

How can Egyptian leaders? or government leaders? be made to see the violence that gay people around the GLOBE have to endure. Maybe you can collect pictures from gay crimes around the world and graphically demonstrate, as a peaceful protest, (but if just by your orientation, you were jailed I can't imagine free speech being protected in Egypt)and use your time in jail like Nelson Mandella did, to change perceptions and you changing the world by your unique experience. SO: SORRY FOR THE NOVEL, my question is, how do you plan to use your jail experience to champion GLBT rights in Egypt? and/or is that even a feasible question in an environment where people are randomly jailed for their sexual orientations?

Wissam Abyad answers:

I actually now live in the United States where I have asylum. After coming to the US last year on the invitation of Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, I have been speaking out for human rights in the Middle East by attending conferences, rallies, and workshops around the USA. I have spoken to students, other activists and LGBT people around the US about what happened to me and to others I know in Egypt. My partner and I speak out whenever we can and have been interviewed by a lot of gay media on this situation.
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Question Submitted by Elaine:

To what extent does Islamic religious practice allow for the inclusion of an LGBT population? In my denomination's interpretation of Christianity, we rely on a theology of incarnation to establish an essential doctrine of human dignity. I wonder if there is a similar type of theological starting place in Islam? Thank you, EMcC

Wissam Abyad answers:

Islam is very conservative and I am not really very well-informed about all of the details of the religion to be able to give you a very good answer. You can check with Al-Fatiha, which is a US-based gay Muslim organization that tries to bring LGBT people into a good understanding of Islam. In Quran there is a statement that the people of "Lot" are damned by God, and some people interpret that to mean homosexuality is wrong.
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Question Submitted by Cathy:

How are you doing these days Wissam? And are you still living in Egypt? I pray for you. Sincerely, Cathy Littrell USA

Wissam Abyad answers:

I am doing very well in the United States. I live in Boston with my partner and have a job. I am not in Egypt, but my mother is still there.
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Question Submitted by Stephen:

In Egypt, are there varying perspectives on homosexuals and homosexual relations? To what extent does local religion peacefully coexist with notions of homosexuality?

Wissam Abyad answers:

Most people in Egypt ignore the existance of Gay people. No one wants to say that there are gay people, and they just kind of deny it exists. Many people have what is considered to be "homosexual relations" by Western standards because the society is very divided into male and female groups. This is not considered "gay" but a way for young people with no other place for sex to do something in secret. Religion in Egypt is becoming very conservative and does not allow for homosexual conduct at all in life there. A lot of upper class people live sort of like people in the West, because they have access to international television, the Internet, and travel a lot. Lower classes of people do not have these opportunities, and so think less like Western people. To many people in Egypt, Gay people are just perverts.
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Question Submitted by Steven:

What can you share with other prisoners of conscience to help give them strength in promoting human rights as an issue of global concern?!!??That is contacting international agencies, etc

Wissam Abyad answers:

I would tell them to be strong, keep believe they can make a difference in life, and try to not spend the rest of their lives suffering inside for what happened to them. This is hard for many people if they do not have support networks, but I would tell them that many international organizations and people are behind them and support them.
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Question Submitted by Antonietta:

Please describe what the dating experience is like for a gay man in predominately Muslim, Egypt.

Wissam Abyad answers:

In Egypt, everyone is pretty conservative, Christian and Muslim. This does not really make a difference in the answer, it is the society that makes the difference. Gay men in Egypt usually used to meet through gay-friendly places and the net, then when things started to get bad and all the arrests happened, people got scared. People still meet online, but much less now, and some people meet at parties and through friends. Dating in Egypt is difficult since most everyone lives at home with their families and are expected to live with them until they get married. As guys get older, their families try to find them someone to marry, which makes it harder for relationships between men if one of them is being set up by their family for marriage. Gay people cannot live together very easily since people never live alone or with roommates - never away from family. It is very hard, but people do it. People also sometimes try to date foreigners, or they travel when they can to meet guys. It is a very difficult situation. One easy thing is it have the person spend a lot of time with you though, since same sex very close friendships are normal. The family would not be surprised about 2 guys spending all the time together.
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Question Submitted by Adryel:

What advice would you give to someone who is facing the same sort of terrible ordeal that you survived?

Wissam Abyad answers:

Hi Adryel, I would tell the person the same as I said before in another question. Be strong, try to think of a life outside of the situation, think of a future without their problem, and look for as many support groups as they can find.
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Question Submitted by marlene:

How did you get through the terrible days and nights? What was the reason you were released.

Wissam Abyad answers:

I spent a lot of time thinking about getting out. I wrote letters, I read a lot, and I read letters from family and friends. Of course I had terrible nights and terrible days, but I tried to just focus on getting out and hoping I would get pardoned. In the foreign prison where I was, the other prisoners supported me a lot, they talked to me, spent time with me, and gave me things, like one French guy gave me French classes. I taught a few guys the basic ideas of computers and the internet, even though they had never used them before. I was released on 3/4 of my sentence mainly due to international pressure.
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Question Submitted by Michael:

What is the level of social acceptance towards LGBT people in Egypt, and do you see it ever changing?

Wissam Abyad answers:

I already answered about the level of acceptance of Gay people in Egypt. Lots of people this that Gay people have no opportunities in life since all they think about is sex. I think someday it will change, but after a lot more social development in Egypt. After a long time of economic development, people will begin to accept more, and with a lot of exposure to the Western world many ideas will start to change. It will take a very long time though.
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Question Submitted by Arlene:

Given the political posititon in this country regarding LGBT people, I was wondering if you have concerns regarding your status as a non-citizen of the U.S.? I know that there are a number of reasons that can be used to begin the deportation process and I believe that sexual identity is one issue. Although you were up front about you sexuality prior to arriving here are you concerned that it could be used against you in any future settings?

Wissam Abyad answers:

Arlene, thanks for your question. I actually received my political asylum in the US based on my sexual orientation and the danger to my life in returning to the Middle East after speaking out so much and after my persecution in Egypt already. I feel very safe in the USA and am very glad to be living here.
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Question Submitted by Anonymous:

What is the first step--and what are the subsequent steps--to changing social perceptions of sexual minorities in Egypt?

Wissam Abyad answers:

This is a very complicated question and I don't think I can answer it really well for you. I think that one way to let people get a better understanding of anything is to have good images of it in their lives. As people see more images in the media of gay people that are not perverted,they need to see things like the Will and Grace or other Western shows now on television in the Middle East. These shows have more normal and less stereotyped bad images of gay people. These are the first steps to changing the images. Also some prominant gay people in Egypt should speak up, show the people that being gay is not bad. When people are that brave, others will start to belive it too.
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Question Submitted by Milo:

What can we do in the United States to support LGBT human rights activists' work in Egypt? How can activists in both countries work together to stop LGBT human rights abuses?

Wissam Abyad answers:

People in the US can continue to support international organizations and their work. People can make themselves aware of what is going on in other countries and try to understand some of their cultural situations to help the organizations there better. I think that by supporting the work of local organizations, international groups can give them more strength and more local credibility to fight for LGBT people.
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Question Submitted by Dominic Chan:

What do you do when you live in a country when the Gov't's views are:- 1) You cannot renounce your religion 2) You are not free to believe and practice what you like 3) The Western Govt still support your Govt because of vested interest in the Middle East

Wissam Abyad answers:

I'm sorry Dominic, I don't understand your question perfectly, but it is aterrible situation and many people are in it all over the world.
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Question Submitted by Jimmy:

Do you believe that the Arabic world is more open to sexual practices that deviate from the norm now days and is it a huge issue in that part of the world (like the US) or is it so repressed that people simply ignore it?

Wissam Abyad answers:

The Arab world is not open to sexual practices that are different from the normal. People there are very conservative and do not accept different things like that. Most people just ignore the real issue and don't even try to understand it or see it in their lives.
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Question Submitted by Jennifer:

How difficult/impossible is it to be openly gay in Egypt?

Wissam Abyad answers:

It is impossible to be openly gay as an Egyptian. You can not be open at work or most family, but if you find a good group of friends, you can have a small group to feel comfortable with.
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Question Submitted by Ellen:

Wissim, you were featured in the AIUSA Children's Edition Summer Postcard Action 2003. Did you receive many cards from kids that summer? You mentioned at the Western Regional Conference last year that the cards from kids were your favorite things...can you expand on that? Thanks.

Wissam Abyad answers:

I received a LOT of postcards from the kids that summer, I loved them! They were very creative, they touched me because little kids were doing something that matters, and it was a bunch of little kids from the other side of the world that had guidance and teaching from adults about these things. Coming for a child it meant a lot to me because they spent the time to make the cards and send them to me from the other side of the world. I still have all of these cards, I brought them with me to the USA when I came to remember them. I was very proud of these kids that they did something like that internationally for someone they didn't even know or meet before.
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Question Submitted by bunthoeurn:

Gay is human also, why do they torture the gay in Egypt? What is reason? Thank you, I am Cambodian

Wissam Abyad answers:

I do not know the reason. People all over the world torture others they think are less than them and they hurt people for being different. I agree with you, being Gay is just a part of being human.
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Question Submitted by Rebecca:

Under what laws were you jailed? Religious? What have been the fate of those who are not able to get out? How long does detention last? How can we help more people?

Wissam Abyad answers:

I was jailed under laws related to prostitution, debauchery and lechery. Others are still in jail for this since they had much longer sentences than I did. I had a sentence of 15 months, but most people had 3 to 5 year sentences and then have serve probation for the same amount of time and go to spend the night in the police station near their home all night every night for the entire period. That makes 3 years in jail leave them with 3 years of nights sleeping in cells in police stations when they are released. You can help more people by always putting pressure on governments that prosecute people for being LGBT. Ask your government to help, write to your congress person and ask them to help people, and write letters to the people themselves if they have been adopted by Amnesty.
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Question Submitted by Katherine:

I was wondering if there have been any egypt policy changes (positive or negative) since you have been released? futher, since AI's overwhelming gustoo seems to have led to your being released, is AI now on the egyptian gov't hit list? or what does the egyptian gov/t think about AI? i think you're a very brave guy! here's to more success in the future!

Wissam Abyad answers:

I have heard that the Egyptian government is not arresting so many people openly anymore like they did for many years. I am not sure if they totally stopped, though.

Egyptian government people are always against organizations like AI since AI and others are against the human rights abuses done by those government people. Whenever I had visitors in prison, they always asked if they were with human rights groups because they did not want to show them Egypt's "dirty laundry."
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Question Submitted by vero:

Hi Wissam, thank you for your courage and determination to free the LGBT issues from being condemned. What is the actual law regarding the LGTB in Egypt? and is there any natinal organisations that are supporting/educating on human rights ?

Wissam Abyad answers:

As I said before there are no laws about LGBT people in Egypt. There is one organization that helps a lot - it is the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights. They have me a pro bono lawyer and helped me and my mother a lot during the time I was in prison.
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Question Submitted by Andie:

As a prisoner of conscience, what one thought kept you surviving; and how far behind does middle eastern civil rights for GLBT lag behind the U.S.; or does it???

Wissam Abyad answers:

The one thought that kept me surviving was that I would get out some day. There is no real comparison to civil rights issues in the US and the Middle East. The Middle East has almost no civil rights or personal freedoms, and in the US people are free to do whatever they want and live the life they choose.
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Question Submitted by Philip:

Under what conditions were you specifically set free? In other words, what separated your case from other gays imprisonned in Egypt?

Wissam Abyad answers:

I was freed on 3/4 sentence. I think it was because of all of the international attention to my case and the efforts of the world community to get me out. My case was not more severe than other cases, but I was more brave to let my name go out in the world than other people. Other people were afraid to put their name in the world view because they were afraid of attention.
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Question Submitted by Justin:

Do you profess a faith, and in what ways have your experiences both in Egypt and in America (but particularly in Egypt) changed the way you think about God?

Wissam Abyad answers:

I reached a point in my life that I do not follow any religion. I don't want to force myself to be any relgion that does not support me for being Gay. I still believe in God, but I am sure God has his own way to keep the balance of justice in the world, even if something terrible happened to me.
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Question Submitted by Rosie:

How may people have been jailed solely for their sexuality?

Wissam Abyad answers:

In Egypt there have been many many people. We think that hundreds of people have been arrested and jailed for their sexuality - off the internet, from parties, off the street, and in groups. There are about 200 people reported for being arrested and jailed for this, but we know many people who did not want to report this publically to organizations to draw attention to themselves, and so this makes the total number much huger.
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Question Submitted by Faisal:

Why do you think the Egyptian government chose to crackdown on the gay community at this particular point in time?

Wissam Abyad answers:

The crackdown did not suddenly happen, it had been going on for a long time in Egypt. Police used to raid places, take their IDs and abuse them, and then started harrassing them, taking money and scaring them. It got worse and worse until the big event of the Cairo 52 which brought the world attention to the country and the terrible things going on there. It had been going on for a long time before that, and went on for a long time after that.
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Question Submitted by Megan:

While you were imprisoned were you treated in any different way than the other prisoners because you are gay? What are they doing today to make sure this doesn't happen again? How can we as Americans stop discrimination of lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transgenders in our neighborhoods/backyards. (Ok so it is more than one question, but it just excites me so!!):-) Thanks for taking time for all of us. You have really opened our eyes; you are an inspiration not only to the gay community but also the human rights community. Thank you.

Wissam Abyad answers:

I was treated differently yes. I was put in cells with death row inmates to keep me from others. I was spit on and slapped by the police telling me that I should not fantasize that I was going to have a lot of sex in jail with the guys there. Also the police in the first police station kept calling me out of my cell to show me to others and say "look at the faggot". They even tried to look at my chest and arms to show I was smooth instead of hairy "like a real man." I suffered all the time for these things.

Americans can help by supporting international organizations to fight for rights of people all over the world and to learn about what is happening all over the world and here in the US. Americans can make sure their government knows they do not support this kind of abuse anywhere.
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Question Submitted by Jackson:

I am the political coordinator for OUTlook, Northern Michigan University's LGBT rights organization. If you would at all be interested in speaking at the university (expenses and compensation provided) please reply for more information. Thank you.

Wissam Abyad answers:

Thanks Jackson, I will email you privately.
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Question Submitted by Beverly:

What have you learned from this ordeal? What is the message you want to communicate to the rest of us about your experience?

Wissam Abyad answers:

I learned to interact with a lot of differnet people, people who are from different types of life than me. I had to talk to and deal with people from all kinds of levels in prison, and never thought I would ever have to deal with them one on one. I learned to accept a lot more from people and a lot less in comfort in life. I learned I am stronger than I thought and that I have a lot of love and support in my life. I had many friends visit me and support me, and I had the constant support of my mother through everything.

No one should have to suffer what I did for just being different, for being Gay. No one should be abused or tortured for their life style and choices. And the support people gave me is what really helped me live through it all, and I ask that people give that support whenever and wherever it is needed and to help whoever needs it.
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